tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5044820951794078204.post7175671646810109114..comments2023-10-30T05:38:45.028-07:00Comments on The Infusion: Vague thoughts on warLKThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05791517233920008067noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5044820951794078204.post-64415337227832739492008-08-14T18:17:00.000-07:002008-08-14T18:17:00.000-07:00Owing to current events, the US military (Gates pe...Owing to current events, the US military (Gates personally in charge) now having rushed to Georgia to offer “humanitarian aid”, in the form of military presence (has anything remotely similar happened in Sudan? Myanmar? Mauritania? Curious, is it not?), in a conflict described as having nothing, and I mean nothing, and Condi Rice repeats adamantly, NOTHING to do with oil pipelines, I thought I would give myself a reality check on a statement I posted here earlier, and review the OT to see if I could be imagining that militarism is documented there.<BR/><BR/>Nope. Not my imagination. No distortion. The Bible is full of war. Throughout the OT, God is documented as not only allowing wars to occur, but also as explicitly directing the Israelites to go to battle (Num. Jos. 1:2, Jdg. 1:1-2, etc.). God is documented as approving and even demanding a count for those who can serve in a standing army (Num. 1:1-4). God gives his people strength and counsel as war approaches (Jos. 1; Jdg. 20:3-4). Not only that, he apparently calls for annihilation (genocide!!) of an entire people (Jdg. 20:16-18) when God apparently tells the Israelites "do not leave alive anything that breathes” (Jdg. 20:16). As documented in the OT, one would be given to believe that God not only permitted war, but that God planned, ordained, and used it to fit a plan and purpose. God is also documented as using military force to punish the Israelites (2 Ki. 25) when they to repent of their wickedness.<BR/><BR/>Other texts to check out, if interested:<BR/><BR/>Exodus 15 <BR/>Exodus 17.14-16<BR/>Deuteronomy 33 <BR/>Deuteronomy 20 <BR/>Deuteronomy 25.17-19<BR/>Judges 5<BR/>Samuel 15.2-3<BR/>Habakkuk 3<BR/>Psalm 68<BR/><BR/>I think it would be interesting to apply “Just War” Theory to these OT battle stories. Would they be justified? I wonder. <BR/><BR/>When we say that the scriptures are the word of God, we need to be very, very careful. God did not write the Bible; this chronicle was composed by many people from oral histories derived from multiple tribal cultures extending into pre-history—a patchwork quilt of texts that was redacted when compiled into a canon, in order to provide continuity. Just because the text is labeled “the Bible” and “scripture” does not mean that we have license to turn off our critical thinking or that we can ignore or even deny that bad stuff was happening to all sorts of people in the name of God. <BR/><BR/>I do not believe that God asks me to define what God is. I also do not believe that God asks us to allow the ancients’ perspective on war to determine our modern bioethic. <BR/><BR/>I stand by what I said before, and if I am wrong, so be it—at least that is taking firm responsibility for my opinion—; God created me to be a thoughtful and discerning creature and I am fallible. But it is human (not an act of the Divine Being) to attempt (and fail) to adequately define God, and it is human to use God as justification for human actions (good and bad). Invoking the name of God as justification (even sanctification) means that the human person does not have to take responsibility for an inhuman act.<BR/><BR/>I don't see Jesus letting us get away with that. And I don't think that saying so denies the long arc of God's relationship with humankind.qoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06687807550095367481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5044820951794078204.post-25031967452996355692008-08-10T11:13:00.000-07:002008-08-10T11:13:00.000-07:00Silly me, I forgot that God is also designated as ...Silly me, I forgot that God is also designated as Adonai!qoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06687807550095367481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5044820951794078204.post-56617425193228107322008-08-10T09:44:00.000-07:002008-08-10T09:44:00.000-07:00The point made about God as depicted in the OT was...The point made about God as depicted in the OT was about how the PEOPLE defined and understood their God, the God of Abraham, who led them out of Egypt to be their God.<BR/><BR/>While our English Bible uses the words "God" and "Lord" (sometimes these two appear together) the original texts use many other terms. El became Elohim, example. Then there is JWHW. BUT, there is another important designation of God: Melech, the King.<BR/><BR/>Melech, in the theocratic context does not designate God as a war-god. However, as King, JWHW is invoked to consecrate the wars of Israel in Canaan. Take a tour through Judges and Numbers.<BR/><BR/>People define God to suit their purpose, particularly if the purpose is war. This does not in anyway truly define the Undefinable, however.<BR/><BR/>God, as defined by the teachings of Jesus, it seems to me, remains outside outside that OT theocratic context.qoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06687807550095367481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5044820951794078204.post-1907846139775819692008-08-09T02:37:00.000-07:002008-08-09T02:37:00.000-07:00GOE -- I'm troubled by your comments, since they s...GOE -- I'm troubled by your comments, since they seem to offer a knee-jerk and simplistic response to a thoughtful post. Just War theory isn't pro-war;and just because people on the right (or left) abuse and distort the concept doesn't make this ancient theology invalid.<BR/><BR/>I'm a church liberal myself, but I also know how deeply complex and multi-layered many of these issues are. Simplistic one-size-fits-all answers, from either the left or right, add nothing to the debate and only foster the widening divide. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps if we all put down our slogans and came out from behind our bumper stickers, we'd find that there's more shared ground than we might have expected. This is what the Presiding Bishop keeps saying to the Anglican communion and perhaps all of us need to follow her counsel on all the issues that divide us.<BR/><BR/>Finally, to say "the Old Testament God was the God of war" and that "I don't get that from Jesus" shows the same tendency to simplify to the point of dangerous distortion. It is the OT God of whom Micah writes, "And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." It is the OT God who is a creator and a sustainer, who demands justice for the widow and orphan, who requires sabbath and sharing, who offers compassion to Hagar, Ruth and so many others. And, of course, the OT God is the God Jesus teaches us about in the New Testament.<BR/><BR/>To suggest that the God of the OT is a different God than that of the NT is to dismiss the very bedrock of our faith and to be blind to the long arc of God's relationship with humankind. It's also just plain wrong.Bonhoefferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05146069802700923015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5044820951794078204.post-50161800162785682972008-08-08T14:29:00.000-07:002008-08-08T14:29:00.000-07:00I wouldn't apply just war theory to Israel's bomba...I wouldn't apply just war theory to Israel's bombardment of the Palestinians, nor to Palestinians' use of suicide bombers. And the reason I think we need to study Just War theory is so that neocons can't hijack it as they have. Which is one of the same reasons (besides, of course, our own spiritual nourishment) why we need to study Scriptures: so that we know when people are misusing them.LKThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05791517233920008067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5044820951794078204.post-2318690176795314392008-08-08T11:53:00.000-07:002008-08-08T11:53:00.000-07:00I would be very interested how you might apply "ju...I would be very interested how you might apply "just war" to Israel's bombardment of the Palestinians, and the role the U.S. has played in that, as well as all other hotspots in the Middle East,South America, South East Asia...<BR/><BR/>This is what I mean when I ask about the church's role in MDG's and foreign policy. <BR/><BR/>"Just war" theory is, as you say, extremely complex and there are many books on it, written by academics who have never seen military action. <BR/><BR/>But real people die, do they not? And just war theory is the neocons justification for supporting a permanent war economy. <BR/><BR/>The Old Testament God was the God of war. I don't get that from Jesus.qoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06687807550095367481noreply@blogger.com